New Life Goal: Acquire Pro-Touring C3

"SVTyler" (svtyler) 08/10/2015 at 14:05 • Filed to: None

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It can’t be that difficult to throw an LS under the hood and tuck some coilovers and 315’s under the fender flares, right? On a related note, why does it seem like there’s not really a modding community for early ‘Vettes?

They seem (to a rather untrained eye such as mine) to be perfect candidates for some modding: there’s a pretty active fanbase around the car, they’re not jaw-droppingly valuable so you don’t feel terrible for chopping one up and decent examples are relatively cheap, parts are plentiful because the General still produces spares, and they’re damn gorgeous (I will fight you if you don’t agree on that , at least). A few people have built up some C3’s but not nearly as many as I would’ve thought. They turned out pretty nice, too:

Moral of the story is that sidepipes are best pipes.

Party-vi > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:08

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Pro-Touring is the absolute worst.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:10

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I’m pretty sure that if it was worth the trouble, people would be modifying them. There’s a reason for one of the most popular mods being a McBurnie kit.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:12

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That green one is gorgeous. Drop an ls9 in it and it’s perfect.

StingrayJake > Party-vi 08/10/2015 at 14:13

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I’m going to guess that you hate restomods in general. Or I just don’t know much about pro-touring and its history.

I’m not a huge restomod fan but there have been some tastefully built cars out there. I’m OK with these.

64Mali > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:13

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I love side pipes. And I am trying to turn my 64 Chevelle into a pro touring style. It helps when your not destroying something rare.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:14

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Big Block C3 or GTFO.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Party-vi 08/10/2015 at 14:14

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Come on mate, some of them DO look good..

StingrayJake > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:15

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I’ve long loved early C3s, and to an extent the EPA-choked late C3s. I’m not a huge restomod fan but I wouldn’t be against taking an old C3 that’s not worth restoring the right way and turning it into a hooner.

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:15

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I just watched Le Mans again last night and kept seeing this guy:

(Picture obviously of the diecast, but the real version of that ‘vette was in a lot of shots in the movie.)

Anyway, It gave me more than a bit of sympathy for your latest passion.

EDIT: Found better pics:

Party-vi > StingrayJake 08/10/2015 at 14:16

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I like restomods - my Willys is a restomod.

Pro-Touring is an older mans attempt at making their youthful cars relevant again with stiff suspensions, big brake kits and fancy-ass wheels. It is for the purpose of “show” under the auspice of “go”.

SVTyler > Party-vi 08/10/2015 at 14:17

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Oh c’mon man, why’s that? Well, it does seem a bit sacrilegious to chop up a perfectly nice classic and turn it into... well, the lede pic but I dig them just for how subversive they are. There’s something terribly amusing about turning an old, wobbly muscle car into some track day monster that has no business being as fast as it is.

crowmolly > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:17

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Why does it seem like there’s not really a modding community for early ‘Vettes?

The modding community for C2 and C3 ‘Vettes is monstrous. GM AFX stuff is more common but there is absolutely no shortage of anything for the C3.

Party-vi > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 08/10/2015 at 14:17

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Hey I’m not your mate, bud.

Tohru > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:18

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The C3 is terrible, though. If you want classic style save up more and get a C2. If you want actual handling and performance, you get a C4.

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Party-vi 08/10/2015 at 14:19

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You’re not my buddy, friend :P

crowmolly > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 08/10/2015 at 14:19

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OH GOD WHY.

WHY WHY would you put a tripower manifold on a 572!

They will fix their mistake when they get it running I’m sure.

youshiftem > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:19

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They’re just not worth the expense it would take. They are horribly heavy and flimsy and every component of the drive line is very weak. To make them at all competent it would be cheaper to start with nothing and bolt the fiberglass panels on at the end.

SVTyler > crowmolly 08/10/2015 at 14:19

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Really? I spent a bit of time looking around before this post and it seemed a bit scarce compared to the typical Mustang/Camaro/A-body offerings. I guess I should’ve worded it better and asked why they aren’t more popular.

crowmolly > Party-vi 08/10/2015 at 14:20

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I did it because I wanted an old car with modern capabilities. 4 wheel manual drum brakes does not make for a good time in the twisties.

crowmolly > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:23

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Van Steel, VBP, Global West, Speed Direct, and a myriad of others offer stuff.

As to more popular, I think that the ‘Vette crowd is geared more towards originality, but that’s just my humble opinion.

camaroboy68ss > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:26

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I can somewhat answer as to why there is a lack of modded vettes,

Untill recently (last 5 yearsish) market value of a modded Vette was extremly low. The value was in restored original corvettes. So many didnt see the point in dumping the amount of money to stick and LS motor into Vette when it was essentially talking your money and burning it. Restoring a Vette back to how it came from the factory was more likly to actually see a profit in the resale. Now lately though I have noticed that a well built pro touring Vette is starting to pull values near or on par with a restored Vette, 95% of these pro touring Vettes are LS powered with a T56 and the loads of trick suspension and big brakes. the big thing though is the starter Vette to mod can't be an original. Maybe few Vettes I know that were stock then modded killed their value.

Party-vi > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 08/10/2015 at 14:27

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You’re not my friend, pal.

camaroboy68ss > crowmolly 08/10/2015 at 14:27

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Or just doing city traffic. I'm soooo glad my 68 has factory front discs.

SVTyler > Tohru 08/10/2015 at 14:29

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I’ll get a lot of flak for this but I actually like the C3 the best out of any Corvette just for the looks. C2 is a straight classic but there’s something about the C3’s man...

SVTyler > 64Mali 08/10/2015 at 14:30

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Pics of the Chevelle? And I figured rarity was a big part of it, there’re obviously more Camaros and Firebirds and Chevelles out there than Corvettes but figured it wasn’t such a rare car people wouldn’t start to build up their own.

SVTyler > crowmolly 08/10/2015 at 14:32

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Wow there’s a lot more support out there than I thought there was, I stand corrected. I figured the Corvette demographic skews a bit more traditional than other communities but didn’t know if that was the sole cause of the tendency towards original cars or if they were difficult to build. Sure there’s other reasons too...

Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh > Party-vi 08/10/2015 at 14:32

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Don’t you pal me buddy :P

64Mali > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:32

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http://ctaaffe64.kinja.com/the-1964-rust-…

Noah - Now with more boost. > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:33

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Me too! I love that coke bottle shape. I think a lot of ...older... opponauts don’t like the C3 because it wasn’t a C2 and it was slow. I think they’re gorgeous and I’d take one over a C2.

SVTyler > youshiftem 08/10/2015 at 14:34

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Are the chassis known for being that much more flimsy than say, a Camaro or Nova to start with? I mean, if you’re going to fully upgrade the car I figured you would replace most of the driveline anyways so that wouldn’t be a massive deal either, right?

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:35

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LS engine in an early C3? I will cut you.

If it was a later car with a dog of a 350 then MAYBE but the early cars are decently powerful and really easy to modify for more power should you choose.

StingrayJake > Party-vi 08/10/2015 at 14:38

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Eh. Do what you want with your car. I'm not going to hate on anybody for doing that.

SVTyler > camaroboy68ss 08/10/2015 at 14:39

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That was my beginning theory, an original Vette was so much more valuable that it wasn’t worth it to mod. And that’s so odd about modding original vs. already-modded cars, is that typical of the classic car community? I don’t really follow older cars so I don’t really have an idea.

SVTyler > 64Mali 08/10/2015 at 14:48

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That’s looking fantastic so far, awesome work man.

SVTyler > cletus44 aka Clayton Seams 08/10/2015 at 14:54

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I meant like late 70s cars, I’m not a complete heathen lol. Seems like you can find a 350-equipped one in decent shape in the mid-teens so you might be able to build a pretty decent car for not that much money.

youshiftem > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 14:54

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The difference is in a camaro or nova it’s easy to stiffen up, there’s room for frame connectors and roll cages and the driveline is easy to strengthen since you can put off the shelf parts from just about anyone. The corvette is different in every way to the other cars of its era, specialty bolt on components are available but they aren’t much better than stock and are very expensive. The “birdcage” design of the car was extremely heavy and badly designed for performance applications. When you’re building one (as I tried) you soon realize your’re better off starting fresh on the chassis or finding a different car.

SVTyler > StingrayJake 08/10/2015 at 14:55

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I get how people can hate them because they’re chopping up a classic but if it’s something like a late-gen C3 or something I’m all for the modding. I love the idea of taking some old dog of a car and making it way faster than any of its original engineers ever thought it could go just because you can.

AdverseMartyr > Party-vi 08/10/2015 at 14:56

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As my father has a (non-matching number) ‘69 that I am telling him to change the suspension and put bigger rims with small sidewalls for handling, I can say that it is not for looks. Pro-Touring as a sport might be that, but the handling on the C3 definitely benefits from those changes. He keeps talking about wishing he had changed the wheels to a more modern one as well.

luvMeSome142 & some Lincoln! > Party-vi 08/10/2015 at 14:58

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Where did you get your rather strict conception of what pro-touring means? I hadn’t even heard of the term. When I googled “restomod vs pro-touring” the descriptions were all over the place. One guy even said that pro-touring was more of a GM thing and restomod was a Ford thing! Obviously that guy is wackadoodle.

SVTyler > Noah - Now with more boost. 08/10/2015 at 15:00

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Thank you! I don’t even know if it’s older people or what but it definitely seems like there’s not a lot of love for the C3’s, even the early ones with the L46’s and LT1’s. I’d probably get a C3 myself just so I could use it as a daily driver or weekend car without having to worry about owning a true classic.

AdverseMartyr > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 15:00

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I notice you are only putting up early C3s. While those are the best looking and I wouldn’t buy a late C3, it seems to me that those would be the best ones to mod since they are complete crap to begin with (ok, I would buy one to do this with it. This seems like a great candidate:

http://honolulu.craigslist.org/oah/cto/513001…

SVTyler > youshiftem 08/10/2015 at 15:02

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Thanks for the reply, I obviously have little knowledge of the specifics of these cars so it’s nice to learn more about them.

SVTyler > AdverseMartyr 08/10/2015 at 15:07

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Actually those were the only pics I could find that illustrate the kind of car I’d want to build. Ideally yeah, you’d chop up a late 70’s 350-equipped car if you’re going to pick a C3 and the near-basket cases like the one you linked where the ones I was talking about: janky body, no engine, rough interior, etc. etc. There’s a few in my area like that as well, which is what prompted the idea of this post to begin with.

Party-vi > Laird Andrew Neby Bradleigh 08/10/2015 at 15:09

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Don’t you buddy me, guy.

cletus44 aka Clayton Seams > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 15:11

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Yeah that makes sense. Essentially you’d ust be “fixing” the wrongs of the late 70’s cars. But the 60’s C3’s are sacred in my mind.

Party-vi > luvMeSome142 & some Lincoln! 08/10/2015 at 15:12

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Pro-Touring focuses on handling improvements that older cars were sorely lacking from the factory, as well as updates to modern conveniences to make the driving experience more akin to driving a newer car.

SVTyler > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 08/10/2015 at 15:17

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Of course that’s a thing.

samssun > Tohru 08/10/2015 at 15:34

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C3s can look pretty sharp, but C4s are very 80s-looking. If you’re going to heavily modify one of them for performance, C3 would be my preference.

Tohru > samssun 08/10/2015 at 15:42

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I happen to like the C4.

JDIGGS > Party-vi 08/10/2015 at 15:49

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I respect and like both. The reality is even a shitty pro touring car is going to LEAGUES ahead of the orig car, do you like driving or starring at your original car that makes people think you are cool or something?

Anyways the sad reality is most old cars handle and stopped like utter shit, thats why even distasteful PRO touring cars are actually far more usable than non restored said cars. It’s also a good method so JOE SMOE can turn his undesirable pile of shit into the SS model.

People who are going to rag on someone for upgrading brakes and suspension on cars that had horrible such items is definitely the bigger tool bag than the guy who just drops 80 grand on his mustang.

Why some loser decided to accompany restomods with shitty chrome 20 inch wheels is beyond me, too many losers watching Chip Foose I guess.

A cool car in stock form is great and can provide a nice driving experience, there is more to a car than just go, there is history, there is fun you get at driving speed. A 10 out of 10 speed car isn’t always greater than a 6 out of 6, it maybe opposite. That being said, upgrading parts on cars that are lacking to begin with, and you can make your driver experience better?

Having an original cool car can be awesome (I have one), but having a car that provides an awesome driver experience while being a cool vintage car, I’d say thats a league above.

JDIGGS > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 15:53

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not as much on the internet. There is a ton. Nobody saw that big auto cross or one lap of a track comp where the c2 and 3 were insanely fast.

I’ve driven a stock c3, they are fucing horrible, horrible cars. NOT MODIFYING is not an option unless you are a douche. Some cars are better left untouched, this is not one of them.

Basically buy a stock mildly desirable one and modify it so if it ever becomes worth a lot you can return it to stock.

Party-vi > JDIGGS 08/10/2015 at 15:53

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I think my biggest issue is the large wheels. They look ridiculous in almost every instance. Plus, not every ‘69 Camaro needs coilovers and Baer brakes.

JDIGGS > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 15:54

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they are picking up now. The early chrome bumpers are costly now. By about 74-5 they became the WORST CAR EVER, the quality just fell apart. This is really when GM starting heading to GM JUNK. The vette is still cool, just awful awful build quality.

nostradimas > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 16:14

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Don’t know if that lack of a modding community is true, but I would assume there’s not a lot of people willing to spend money turning a chassis with the structural rigidity of a rusted Dodge Shelby Omni GLHS into a track monster... Or maybe that’s just me

AdverseMartyr > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 16:37

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I’ve had the same thoughts, and I think it could be done where it would not result in a monetary loss if you can do the work. Bottom end on those cars is supposed to be in the 10K range. Now if I only had some spare cash and no other projects. Considering I have a 450SL to play with, two Ninjas to fix and a GSXR 750 to build; I should really stop dreaming about other projects. I am pretty sure I have some sort of mental condition. I want all the cars and motorcycles!

AdverseMartyr > SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie 08/10/2015 at 16:38

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That’s just wrong. And there is definitely a market. A small niche one to be sure, but it is there.

camaroboy68ss > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 18:29

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It really depends, Im only well versed in american cars, so Europe and Japan cars I gmhave no clue.

60s muscle cars are really about the only ones where restored stock will always be more than a modded version, but that’s mainly a guideline.

For example let’s look at the 69 Camaro. A restored numbers matching Z/28 or SS 396 is a $65k to $100k+ car where as a Ive seen a few LS swapped pro touring cars hover at around $50k. Now a restored I6 base 69 isn’t worth much like $25k, though if you can find one, there are your big buck version like a Yenko, COPO, L89 etc that will always be restored either to dealer fresh or if a well know race car from 69/70 then in that form. Where an old unknown race car isn’t worth much depending on how cut up it is.

Now most older cars like 30s-early 60s are usually more valuable with mods depending on the car yet again. Usually though say a 55 chevy bel air is worth more with a updated small block chevy, three or four speed automatic, power steering, power brake and disc brakes in the front because they are way more enjoyable to drive than a stocker.

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 18:39

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Yes. An amazeballs thing.

89PartyMobile > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 22:14

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I can only speak to my own experience with my C4 over the last year, but the online community definitely skews more traditional than other performance makes for a variety of reasons. Many of the C4 guys go over to the 3rd-gen F-body forum when they start looking into serious drivetrain tuning options. That being said, things are starting to change as these cars sit at the bottom of their depreciation curve and a new generation of owners picks them up for the platform’s potential.

I think any Corvette can be a great and capable driver with a little TLC and updating. C3s are gorgeous machines and deserve a little more love. Chrome bumpers are my favorite, but the models with the aero kits at the end of the run are very sweet, too. Even the slow ones have SBCs. The reason you don’t see more LS swaps is that’s it’s easier and more cost effective to simply rip the smog stuff off, throw on a modern set of heads and a cam, and go.

If you want one of the fastest cars at the track, go with a C5 or newer and be done. If you want a fun driver with some style, and if you don’t mind getting your hands dirty, pick up a C3 or C4 and have a good time.

89PartyMobile > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 22:21

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C3s are definitely not terrible. I agree with Tohru that C4s are a big leap in the handling department, but C3s will be perfectly adequate for a street car and have loads of style to boot. One disadvantage that C3s have over C4s in my market is that prices are already climbing back up even for the less desirable late-70s models. Meanwhile, you can get a manual C4 in decent shape for +/- $5k. You are downright stealing those cars for those prices, leaving more money for mods.

SVTyler > AdverseMartyr 08/10/2015 at 22:44

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I should really stop dreaming about other projects. I am pretty sure I have some sort of mental condition.

It’s called being Jalop, we have free therapy sessions here on Oppo 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

AdverseMartyr > SVTyler 08/10/2015 at 23:47

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I’m pretty certain that those therapy sessions don’t help cure anything. It’s more like the opposite of an AA meeting. Everyone here encourages more projects.

EricisDaywalker > Noah - Now with more boost. 08/12/2015 at 00:39

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Huh? The C-3 was slow?

You have never heard of an L88 427, have you? See the 1969 below:

Factory under-rated at over 450hp...dyno tests show well into the mid 500’s. That 427 Chevy and the LS6 454 (450 hp 1970 Chevelle SS) were one of the few cars that legitimately gave the Chrysler Hemi a run for its money. And the rare ones usually sale for well in the 6 figure range at auctions. See the prices at the link below.

Read more here: http://www.supercars.net/cars/349.html

Noah - Now with more boost. > EricisDaywalker 08/12/2015 at 09:33

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Lol of course I’ve heard of the 427. You and I both know that they’re the exception, not the rule! I’m sure any C3 can be be fast with the right engine upgrades but come you know what I was getting at. Those emissions compliant small blocks were garbage stock with less than 200 HP some years.